This is a quite enigmatic letter for many reasons, unfortunately is in not good condition. The first is the destination then the two different handstamps of Milano
Is there someone who can help me?
Francesco
This is a quite enigmatic letter for many reasons, unfortunately is in not good condition. The first is the destination then the two different handstamps of Milano
Is there someone who can help me?
Francesco
Hello Francesco,
the cancels you can find at 'Kleb/Kumpf-Mikuli, Catalogo dei Timbri Prefilatelici del LOMBARDO-VENETO, Wien 1934' page 42 and 43.
primo timbro pag. 43:
timbro nr: ww
anno: 1839 - 1840
colore: nero
rarità: 6 (raro)
secondo timbro pag. 42
timbro nr: RR
anno: 1832 - 1839
colore: rosso
rarità: 2 (non raro)
Se i dati in questo libro sono corretti, tua lettera è del 1839.
tanti saluti
Dieter
Hello Francesco,
may be they used 2 Milano - handstamps, because the letter came back and was send to J. J. Voith in Steyr for a second time? First taxed 14 Kr. CM, then 16 Kr. CM, finally 14 Kr. CM for the addressee to pay. Shame that an idiot cut off a peace, why so ever.
But it´s still an amazing letter - exactly the type of letter I love so much.
Many thanks to Dieter and Rhalp [Blockierte Grafik: http://www.lafilatelia.it/forum/images/smilies/n_ok.gif]
At this moment I'm still puzzle about this letter because seems a mix between F1 (unpaied letter) + F2 below (partially paied registered letter). It colud be a re - shipment but I wonder: could the letter be on 27th in Graz and on the 28th in Milano? [Blockierte Grafik: http://www.lafilatelia.it/forum/images/smilies/39.gif]Unfortunately I cant' read well the date on the red handstamp: could it be also the 22nd? [Blockierte Grafik: http://www.lafilatelia.it/forum/images/smilies/39.gif] Anyway I dont' understand the double mark red-black on this domestic delivery. I attach here below a third letter (F3) with the same kind of marks that it is explicable: here you can see the long way to work the letters even if they were not registered. There is a reasons but for me it is too difficult to explain in english .[Blockierte Grafik: http://www.lafilatelia.it/forum/images/smilies/106.gif]
You can have more info about the black- round mark, and many handmarks too, reading this story here, unfortunately in italian: it's free, it's enough to subscribe the website and download.
https://independent.academia.edu/FrancescoLuraschi
Milano anno 1839. Imperial Regia Fornitura dei Timbri Postali I BOLLI del PUTINATI
Dieder, immagino che le tue vacanze a Jesolo siano state molto numerose o comunque parecchio "profonde" visto che scrivi benissimo in italiano. Mi permetto di consigliarti, oltre a Camilleri che pure io stento a capire quando scrive in dialetto siciliano, due autori che mi piacciono molto: Piero Chiara, del Lago Maggiore, (per esempio "Il piatto piange") o Andrea Vitali che è proprio del Lago di Como (per esempio "Olive comprese").
[Blockierte Grafik: http://www.lafilatelia.it/forum/images/smilies/ciao.gif]Francesco
Hallo Fransesco
Can you make the Scanns a bit bigger? You can show them up to 580 kb - then it is easier to see the details.
It is, I think, only one thing I d not understand by the letter shown in post 1, and that is the red 16. A taxation 16 Kr is not possible because 14 the highest is. But it may be possible to understand when I can read the red word under the Raccomnadata Stamp.
Else is the letter right taxed with 6 Kreuzer Franko for the recomandation - this the seder had to pay as you know. The adressee pays the normal 14 Kr.
I hope you can make som better Scanns with higher kb.
Best regards
Nils
Nils,
here attached you find three more scans of parts of the letter. I hope they can help you. About 16: couldn't it be what in italian is "diritto di consegna", maybe in english "fee to delivery"? I Know that in LV there was a rate for the delivery of registered letter and it was since 1823 of 2 KR. Not always, anyway, was asked but often you have to add to registration fee, porto and retour - recepisse. Then, I reminded a double rate in Austria, one black and one red "sanguigna", even on simple letter. I found an example online. Maybe is it a rate in some local coin?
[Blockierte Grafik: http://www.lafilatelia.it/forum/images/smilies/ciao.gif]Francesco
Hallo Francesco
To the last letter. Yes you are right about the currency. In Dornbin they have here paid in Kreuzer Rheinisch and not Kreuzer CM. And there is also a carrier fee in it. The adressee paid 14 Kr CM + 2 Kr CM Carrier Fee - In kr rheinisch it is 19 Kr.
But this I would not have expected in Graz or Trieste or Steyr. I can not rememberd to have seen a delivery fee before, but I am geting older and there is a lot I do not remember any more. Anyway the 16 Kreuzer are not canceled while the first 14 Kreuzer are.
Normal by letters wrong delivered is to see an "Abzug" - I think that the written red word is a statement for this. This is but not the same colour as the 16, so it may have been written in two different places. And since the 16 are not cancelled, it can be that it is written in Steyr. But I have to let the description her have some questionmarks since I do not now it from before to Steyr. Nevertheless you can be right about the delivery fee.
Regards
Nils
Nils,
thank for your information.
About the delivery fee for registrated letter I know it was applied since 1823, maybe even before, and lasted till 1842. Here below I attache an example from Milano to Chiari where the sender was paying registration rate + porto and the addressee 2 kr. Anyway it's not easy to find it because often is included in the porto rate and, I think, not always was asked.
About the carrier fee (I mean the postman remuneration )on simple letters there is also in LV but not always was signed on the letter, and when it was most of the time was on the back as you can see from the scan taken from the work of Lorenzo Carra published on Storie di Posta #12. The rate in Kr was translated into centesimi and added the carrier fee of 3/100.
I think that also in Dornbirn not always was signed the translation into rheinisch Kr as you can see on the letter here.
http://www.ebay.it/itm/P3874-Mila…34AAOSwVFlUIGlY
About my letter Milano - XXXX: I also was thinking about the possibility that the sender was asking it back, as permitted by the postal regulation if not delivered yet,and the rate cancelled and written again means a different operation inside the post office.
I forgot the reason for which the sender was asking back the letter: maybe he decided to send it registrated instead of simple???
Francesco