Hallo Schorsch,
leider kann ich nur wenige Fragen beantworten.
Die USA haben den Brief postalisch m. E. nicht gesehen. Die mir bekannten Daten passen auch nicht für eine Linie. Die Havre - Linie gab es im Juni 1850 noch nicht, auf die ich sonst getippt hätte.
Der Brief wurde wohl vom Kapitän befördert. Er erhielt in Havre den Stempel Outre - Mer, so dass man wusste, dass er aus Übersee kam.
Ich nehme an, dass TT mit Frankreich einen Vertrag über den geschlossenen Paketversand besaß, der auch für Briefe über taxisches Gebiet hinaus galt. Den Stempel Aus- Über Frankreich kenne ich in diesem Zusammenhang nicht und habe ihn auch bei van der Linden nicht gefunden. Das muss aber nichts heißen.
Er deutet auf eine Leitung über Forbach hin - es wurden Stempel in Frankfurt am Main in späterer Zeit eingesetzt, die diesem textlich gleichen und auf vergleichbare, vertragliche Modalitäten schließen lassen (durch den geschlossenen Transit Frankreichs - TT kam die jeweilige deutsche Eingangspost nicht in den Genuss der Vereinsaufgabepost, so dass die Gebühr für Deutschland an Taxis ging und nicht an Preußen (Forbach, Aachen usw.) bzw. Bayern (Homburg, Wissembourg) oder Baden (Strasbourg). Ein cleverer Schachzug ...
Mit 9 Ngr. Porto für den Empfänger (bitte keine Portoaufteilung von mir zu erwarten, die kenne ich nicht), war der Brief nicht sonderlich teuer, im Vergleich zur Verwendung der üblichen Routen mit Postgebühren für die USA, den transatlantischen Transit, der Kosten für GB bis zum Kontinent und den diversen Postverwaltungen, die ihn nach Sachsen gelangen ließen.
Liebe Grüsse von bayern klassisch
Hallo zusammen,
zum Tarif sagt die sächsische Postverordnung Nr. 396 vom 9.1.1848 etwas aus:
Für "durch Frankreich transitierende Korrespondenz" bei Spedition über Frankfur a.M. oder über Baden werden erhoben für Briefe vom Gewicht bis 1 1/2 Hektas incl. bei Transport mit französischen Handelsschiffen: 90 Pfg. (resp. 9 Ngr.).
Diese wertvolle Information sollte natürlich zu einer Spedition dieses Briefes in die richtige Sammlung führen!
Beste Grüße
Altsax
Hello all!
Here is a prepaid double rate item from the U.S. to Saxony in 1866.
Rate:
Saxony 2 x 28 cent rate per 1/2 ounce (Sep 1861 - Dec 1867)
N. York Br Pkt 14 paid
PCM 10 cts - surface
4 cts - Belgian transit
US 10 cts - surface
32 cts - British packet
Route:
New York Mar 27 1866
by St Africa
Boston Mar 28
Cunard Africa
Queenstown Apr 8
Aachen Franco Apr 10
Ausgabe Apr 11 (verso)
I do have a couple of questions that perhaps can be answered in this forum.
1. Ausgabe markings: Is there a way to identify where an Ausgabe marking was applied?
2. Rail routings to Saxony in the 1860's. Aachen and Coln would be certain, I think - unless it took the northern route via Dortmund? Then Cassel, Eisenach, Leipzig.
I suppose it could have routed southern as well?
Thank you in advance.
Rob
Hello Rob
"Ausgabe" meant the day and the delievery (1st turn, 2nd turn +++ depending on the size of the city - the bigger the city, the more turns) of the city the letter was addressed to. Your letter was addressed to Leizpig, so it was used in Leipzig. Had it been addressed to Dresden, almost the same handstamp would have been used there.
To the railway:
It will have been Dortmund - Hannover - Leipzig at that time, I suppose. The war from 1866 was on the edge and the southern route would not have been faster.
Danke!
The help is appreciated.
Realizing that the Ausgabe marking I show in the previous post doesn't belong to this cover.... I must have misnamed the scans and I'll have to do some looking.
I must have confused some other comment I heard elsewhere about being able to differentiate the receiver markings form place to place. Yes, it makes perfect sense that it would be applied at the receiving post office.
thank you for the railway suggestion. I see the link to maps in another post and I will look at them as well. I do have a scan of a period 1861 rail map that helps me, but the development was very rapid in the 1860's throughout Europe. Much changed by 1866.
Best,
Rob
Hello Rob
the "Ausgabe" handstamps differed here and there, as there were many hundreds of them, may be thousands all over Germany (a few countries did not use them - Bavaria for instance).
The railways changed the whole country - as they did with your country. But as the density of the population in Europe was very high, changes were made very fast, especially in the most crowded parts of Europe (Westgermany, Belgium, the Netherlands etc.).
The link to the ieg-maps is very valueable, as you can easily realize the groth of the railways. I use them on a weekly basis ...
I hope everyone is finding a way to deal with the current pandemic and the issues it is causing. I have been trying to think of ways I can help others and one thought was to share something I enjoy and hope that others will get a moment of respite in sharing the enjoyment.
Here is another letter form the United States to Saxony. The rate is again 28 cents per 1/2 ounce. This item is overpaid by 2 cents. In the case of overpays to the German States via Prussian mail we can never say for certain if the overpayment was for convenience or because there was confusion with the 30 cent unpaid rate.
The timing of this cover is interesting because the American Civil War continues, but it is clear that the Confederate States are now fighting a losing battle. General Sherman is entering the state of South Carolina and Francis Blair has arrived in Richmond (the capitol of the Confederate States) to propose peace negotiations.
New Orleans has been in the Union's hands for some time (since may 1862), so the departure of mail using the US Postal system is not unusual. But, it is notable that the ship that sailed from New Orleans to New York is noted on the cover (Per Feng Shuey x first mail). The Feng Shuey was a Cromwell Line ship that was known to carry the mails from New Orleans at the time. The "first mail" part of the document could mean one of two things. It could mean the first mail out of New York. If that is the case, it is merely a directive that the exchange office should put it on the first trans-Atlantic sailing that would get it to Europe with no restrictions on route. The other options is that it could simply be a note that if the Feng Shuey is missed, or if there is an earlier departure, it should simply be expedited.
The 24 cent stamp on this cover was identified by William Herzog as a 'blackish violet' shade, which is highly sought after. Since Herzog's time, there has been discussion as to what constitutes that shade.
Best,
Rob
Hello Rob
30 Cents are allright via PCM (Prussian Closed Mail), what shows the entrance handstamp of Aachen.
Very nice letter and to pay a lot more for "colours" of certain stamps is always a bit of a problem (believe, or not believe).
Hello Rob,
Very nice cover, thank you for showing.
I think that it did matter which route the mail had to be sent. At least it was indicated by the postage (28 Cents were enough for paid PCM) that a ship to Bremen or Hamburg was not the first choice.
Kind regards and keep healthy,
nordlicht
Hallo nordlicht,
Thank you for the comment. Actually, a ship to Bremen or Hamburg made a stop at Southampton where the mails to Europe other than those to Hamburg/Bremen mails were offloaded. So, about the only shipping line in 1865 that would not have been eligible would be the French direct line.
You would be correct that it was paid for Prussian mail, so it would not go via Bremen or Hamburg. But, the docket 'by first mail' would still mean that they should put it on the first ship that gets it to the destination - and that would have included HAPAG and NGL.
Hallo Ralph,
Yes, 30 cents is ok to Saxony as the prepaid rate prior to September 1861. After that, the rate for prepaid mail was reduced to 28 cents, but unpaid mail was 30 cents. Since this is prepaid, it is over franked by 2 cents.
And, I agree. While the 24 cent 1861 is known for its "special" shades, I prefer the postal history. This one was not described as 'blackish violet' at auction, so I was able to acquire it. 
With current definitions, I wonder if it would certify as one, but I am not interested enough to pay for the opinion.
Best,
Rob
Hello Rob,
you´re right, sorry for my mistake, I didn´t look at the date.
nordlict,
This item did go via the Inman Line from New York (Jan 28) on the City of Baltimore. Arriving at Queenstown on February 9.
It would have gone by rail in Ireland to cross the Ireland via the Kingston/Holyhead Packet. From there by rail to London. Cross the Channel to Ostende and then the exchange office at Aachen on Feb 11. There is an Ausgabe backstamp for Feb 12 (see image).
Ralph,
You are always so kind to look at so many posts and respond to them. If you didn't make a mistake (though rarely) we would not think you human.
All is well.
Rob
You´re very kind, Rob.
Hello everyone!
It has been a while since I visited the forum!
Here is an item that was mailed via Hamburg to Saxony in 1865.
The agreed upon rate via Hamburg for members of the DOPV was 15 cents per 1/2 ounce.
This item has 28 cents in postage paid ,but it is marked as "Insufficiently Paid". It must have weighed more than 1/2 ounce and no more than 1 ounce.
However, the red New York Exchange mark would indicate that the item is fully paid to the foreign exchange office.
It seems to me that Hamburg chose to accept that it was fully paid and it agreed that it was a double weight letter. The blue "4" seems to me to be a credit marking of 4 sgr (2 x 2 sgr) for the transit cost in DOPV that is passed forward from Hamburg.
I do not see an indication that any tax was due of the recipient.
This letter crossed the Atlantic Ocean on HAPAG's Bavaria, arriving in Hamburg on May 28 (as seen with markings on the reverse).
I would appreciate it if others who know German postal systems during this time could give their opinion as to whether my reading is correct on this item.
Best to all!
Rob
Hello Rob,
the total franco for a double weight letter was 30 Cents.
In Hamburg the "Insufficently Paid"-mark was interpreted as
"Paid up to Hamburg".
The addressee in Saxony had to pay 2*2 Ngr.
Best
Altsax
Danke,
If I understand you correctly, that would mean it was treated as if it were paid 20 cents US (paid only to Hamburg) and the transit cost from Hamburg to Saxony was 4 Ngr.
I need to check and see if there are instructions in the US for this situation. I am guessing there is not, but it is worth looking.
Rob
Danke,
If I understand you correctly, that would mean it was treated as if it were paid 20 cents US (paid only to Hamburg) and the transit cost from Hamburg to Saxony was 4 Ngr.
I need to check and see if there are instructions in the US for this situation. I am guessing there is not, but it is worth looking.
Rob
Hello Rob,
the correct tax was:
Chicago - New York: 2*3 Cts.
New York - Hamburg: 2*7 Cts.
Hamburg - Chemnitz: 2*5 Cts.
The problem ist the red exchange mark "24" (Cts.), which does not correspondend with the "Insufficently Paid"-mark.
May be, the letter was meant to be sent via Aachen (prussian closed mail). The tax would have been 28 Cent for a norma- weight-letter. Because of its double-weight, the letter was marked "insufficiently paid" and sent via Hamburg for a lower tax.
They forgot to cancel the "insufficiently paid"- mark. So in Hamburg the letter was treated as unpaid for the DÖPV.
Best regards
Jürgen
Jurgen,
Correct.
That is the problem.
New York exchange clearly intended this to go via Hamburg mail, even if the sender thought it might go via Prussian closed mail. The red exchange mark gives the proper credit to Hamburg (24 cents) and also indicates Hamburg Packet, would only be placed on an item to go via the Hamburg mail. The red marking would indicate to me that New York treated this item as fully paid, passing on the full value of 24 cents to Hamburg.
I suspect we will never know for sure how this one was treated. The blue "4" could mean either a taxe due or a credit passed on for transit from Hamburg. The convention called for "all or nothing." No payment of a partial rate was allowed - such an item would be treated as wholly unpaid.
It is possible, I suppose, that the sender paid the remainder in cash and the NY office didn't bother to cross out the insufficiently paid marking.
Thank you for the conversation on this item Jurgen.
Rob
