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Altitalien

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Sunday, December 23rd 2012, 7:24am

USA - Italien

Briefe Italien - USA vor ca. 1855 sind - anders wie Altdeutschland - ziemlich selten, mit wenigen Ausnahmen (zB gibt es ein großes Archiv in die Toskana, wo viele hunderte Briefe bekannt sind). Die italienische Auswanderung hatte nämlich erst später eingesetzt. Ein schönes Beispiel ist dieser Brief, der an Bord des Cunard-Dampfers "Columbia" 1841 von Boston nach Liverpool geschrieben wurde und eine interessante Reiseberichterstattung enthält. In Liverpool wurde er dann nach Bologna durch die Post befördert. Hätte nun der Absender den Brief nicht eigenhändig bis Liverpool gebracht, wäre er zu 95% mit einem forwarder dorthin gelaufen. Direkte Briefe sind sehr sehr selten.
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Monday, December 24th 2012, 9:51am

Hallo Altitalien!
Ein absoluter Top-Brief! Und besonders schön mit solchem Inhalt :P


Hier einer aus Baltimore, der einen etwas anderen Leitweg über Le Havre, Hüningen, durch die Schweiz und Mailand nach Rom nahm und offensichtlich 42 1/2 Bajocchi kostete. Eine Frage: Wo kamen die 28 1/2 (18 1/2?) in roter Tinte drauf? Mailand???

Liebe Grüße
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Tuesday, December 25th 2012, 7:21am

Also die 28 1/2 sind US-cents und in Baltimore bezahlt und geschrieben worden. Das ist die amerikanische Inlandsgebühr bis New York, in den USA waren ja bis 1845 diverse Entfernungsstufen. Danach ist das ein Portobrief in den Kirchenstaat aus Frankreich, daher auch keine weitere französische Taxe, nach dem Vertrag von 1838. Die 42 1/2 bajocchi sind nicht erklärbar, der Brief ist vor dem Tosti-Tarif. Leider sind diese Taxen nicht deklinierbar, und wir wissen auch nicht, wieviel der Kirchenstaat an Frankreich gezahlt hat. Dieses Archiv ist bekannt und eine der wenigen Quellen für Briefe aus Amerika in den Kirchenstaat aus jener Zeit. Das Kapital USA-Altitalien (in der Zeit 1815-1850) müsste man überhaupt einmal systematisch aufarbeiten... Aber wer hat dazu Zeit ;-( Jedenfalls ein wunderbarer und schöner Brief, zu dem ich gratuliere und den ich selbstvertürlich auch gern hätte! Ein schönes Weihnachtsfest wünsch ich

Altitalien

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Tuesday, December 25th 2012, 7:08pm

Ich muss mich berichtigen: auf dem Brief stehen nicht 28 1/2, sondern 18 3/4 cents (die Distanz Baltimore - New York betrug 188 Meilen).

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Thursday, December 27th 2012, 6:46pm

Vielen Dank! Die blassrote Tinte ist echt schwer lesbar!
Liebe Grüße
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Wednesday, January 16th 2013, 7:28pm

Liebe Freunde,
jetzt gibts noch einen drauf: zum vorher gezeigten Brief Boston-Bologna ist ein noch früherer aus derselben Korrespondenz aufgetaucht, der unglaublich ist.
Es ist ein "doppelter" Transatlantik-Brief. Er wurde geschrieben an Bord der "British Queen", einem Pionierdampfer der British & American Steam Navigation Company. In New York angekommen, entschied der Verfasser des Briefes in abzuschicken, und, obwohl er ursprünglich (Vermerk im Brief) ihn der "Great Western" anvertrauen wollte, kam er über die "Britannia", "via Halifax" (Nova Scotia, heute Kanada), also mit dem 2. Dampfer der Cunard-Linie (nach der "Unicorn") nach Liverpool. Es war die 7. Reise der ersten regulären Transatlantik-Postverbindungen des 19. Jahrhunderts!! Man beachte: 2 Mal den Ozean überquert, hin mit einem Nicht-Vertrags- und Pionier Dampfer um zurück mit dem 2. Vertragsdampfer überhaupt (die Cunard-Line hatte einen Vertrag mit der britischen Admiralität) nach Bologna zu kommen. Und wieder ein phantastischer Reisebericht mit viel "oral history"...
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Wednesday, January 16th 2013, 9:07pm

Hallo Altitalien,

das ist schon ein Traum - fürwahr. Schaffst du es, die Taxen aufzugliedern? 27 Bajocchi lese ich für den Empfänger, aber die anderen?

Liebe Grüsse von bayern klassisch
Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph

Niemals bin ich weniger müßig, als in meinen Mußestunden. Und niemals weniger einsam, als wenn ich allein bin. Publius Cornelius Scipio "Africanus"

Altitalien

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Thursday, January 17th 2013, 6:45am

Wer auch immer für den Absender in Liverpool den Brief zur britischen Post gebracht hat, der musste 1 shilling 7 d bezahlen, damit war der Brief gemäss PV GB-F bis zur französischen Ausgangsgrenze bezahlt (ANGLETERRE 2 / CALAIS). Der Brief lief weiter über Sardinien (VIA DI / PT DE BEAUVOISIN) und die Lombardei (SAR, Mailand) und dann Mailand - Mantua - Bologna. Die 27 bajocchi Endgebühr sind leider nicht aufdröselbar, wurden aber festgelegt für Briefe die über Österreich aus England kamen, wohl nach dem PV Kirchenstaat-Österreich.

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Thursday, January 17th 2013, 8:42am

Hallo Altitalien,

vielen Dank für die Interpretation des tollen Briefes.

Liebe Grüsse von bayern klassisch
Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph

Niemals bin ich weniger müßig, als in meinen Mußestunden. Und niemals weniger einsam, als wenn ich allein bin. Publius Cornelius Scipio "Africanus"

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Thursday, April 5th 2018, 1:24am

Here is an unlikely routing to Italy.
Most of the time, US to Italy covers were routed via France. This one went via Bremen Treaty Mail at a rate that was only available in 1867. At present, I am only aware of four covers showing this rate from the US to Italy.

Italy 24 cent rate per 1/2 ounce (Feb 1867-Dec 1867)

Bremen Franco
21 (in red by blue 'Franco')
Bremen 11 cts - packet
1 ct surface
7 ct Union Transit
2 ct transit to Venice
US 3 cts - surface

1 ½ (red) 1.5 grote credit

Question: Could someone clarify my understanding of the 1.5 grote credit?

Route:
W.H.Newman & Co NY Nov 6, 1867
New York Nov 7
North German Lloyd Hansa
Southampton Nov 20
Bremen Nov 22
Innsbruck - Brenner Pass ??
Verona 25 Nov 67

2 in oval - I think this is the delivery number for the day Venice?

Brenner Pass railway opened on August 24, 1867, so I am guessing it was used here? But, I am not certain about it.
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Friday, November 9th 2018, 4:14pm

Hello all!

Here are three pages from my exhibit for mail from the United States to Italy via the French Mails.

The first page has a map and route summary that I wish to update to make it more accurate if I can find the time to do so. The problem is that the available transportation has many changes during the 1860's, so it is impossible to show in one map. But, it is an exhibit, which means you have to simplify and do your best to be accurate at the same time. ;)

I am always happy to hear feedback or corrections if people see them. In the United States, I often receive corrections for things related to US routing, postmarks, trans-Atlantic packets, rates and other such things. But, the expertise for what happens in Europe is, of course, not as strong. I value your input if you have it. I especially appreciate links to sources or book and article suggestions.

Best Regards,
Rob
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12

Friday, November 9th 2018, 5:17pm

Hallo Rob,
.
so much awesome material and especially so much invaluable informations about (transit-)taxes, routes etc....that all is simply breathtaking. Thank you very much fort letting us participate.
.
Herzliche Grüße !
.
Tim :thumbup:

13

Sunday, January 27th 2019, 11:34am

Hello Rob

Ralph gave me a hint to your us -bremen - italy letter.
I am interested in this connection too, becaus I collect germany - italy and transit : from everywhere through Germany to Italy. So I have some letters from Us via Bremen to Italy or papal States.
The best collection through Bremen is the Littauer collection.

Your letter from November 1867 went over Brenner pass. After opening of this railway section, nearly completely all correspondence to and from Italy went this way because it was the fastest line (from US FRance stayed the main line) . In 1867 this new line was a reason for a new postal convention between Austria and Italy to reduce the rates.
For the Northern German countries, the rate was reduced to 3 Silvergroschen, divided in two: 1,5 sgr to the departing german country and 1,5 sgr for Italy. For Bavaria the rate was 12 Kreuzer and the partition 6/6.

In these times Bremen wouldn`t show Grote currency on transit letters . Bremen would debit Us 3 Sgr. for GAPU and Italy and would write 1,5 Sgr. weiterfranko to Italy.
Because Bavaria would be the german point of exchange to Italy, the 1,5 Sgr were canceled and changed to 6 Kreuzer rheinisch -which would be equivalent.(from Bavaria the letter would be rated 12 Kreuzer and 6 Kreuzer Weiterfranko). you see the 6 in red on the right of the 1 1/2.

The 2 in circle on the back is from Verona, it says it is the second letter distribution of the day.(they had two or even three distributions a day, morning, noon, evening).

The breakdown of the US 24 cents to the different players mostly doesn't work well. I have about 30 letters from Us via Germany to Italian States. and mostly the letters are overpaid. The reason is, that between german states, Switzerland, Italian states there were various rate changes , which were not communicated in time to US. This means, that the Germans (Prussia, Bremen, Hamburg) had extra profits, because US would credit more, than Bremen would have to credit to the next post administration. In your case, the rate was reduced on first october 1867 from 4 3/4 Silvergroschen to 3 Sgr. But it took to months for US to reduce the rates through Bremen. Very difficult is the time between 1859 and 1862, when the rate changed every two months becaus of the unification of Italian States. The Us rates in these times do not coincide to the actual credits.
The routing of your letter is right. I think that the letter would pass from Cassel through Würzburg to Nürnberg and not the way through Coburg. But I am not excactly aware, when these line was opened .
Best regards, MArtin

14

Sunday, January 27th 2019, 11:40am

the destination is Venice not Verona, so the 2 in the circle is from Venice. Sorry Martin

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Monday, January 28th 2019, 3:47am

Martin,
Your help is greatly appreciated and very valuable to me. My utmost thanks.

I will check my maps on the section of the route you mention. I seem to recall that both were options in 1867, so it is more a question of which had the advantageous schedule. Probably best for me to not even guess unless I can find a reference that would confirm one over the other. I was beginning to understand what you say regarding rate from the US not keeping up with those in Europe, but your post finally pushed me to a much better understanding. Thank you.
I am also aware of Mr. Littauer's work. His exhibit material can be found at the US Philatelic Classics Society site and I had just located it a few days ago, but I had not yet found the information you provide.

I find that I am often not so far away from understanding, but I have two problems that usually get me into trouble.
The first is shown by your explanation below.
In these times Bremen wouldn`t show Grote currency on transit letters . Bremen would debit Us 3 Sgr. for GAPU and Italy and would write 1,5 Sgr. weiterfranko to Italy.
Because Bavaria would be the german point of exchange to Italy, the 1,5 Sgr were canceled and changed to 6 Kreuzer rheinisch -which would be equivalent.(from Bavaria the letter would be rated 12 Kreuzer and 6 Kreuzer Weiterfranko). you see the 6 in red on the right of the 1 1/2.

The currencies of the time in Europe are something where my knowledge is still weak. This is often why I get stopped with analysis on a cover and I just need to keep working to fix the problem. I can not remember when or where I got the grote currency for this one. I suspect it was supplied to me by someone in the US who was equally unsure about currencies in the German areas. this explanation makes perfect sense to me now. I think I started to get a sense for it when I had help figuring out an item from Austria to the Netherlands during the same period.

The second is the normal issue of collecting all of the appropriate references, including the conventions and other official documents that help one figure out these covers. It's compounded by my typical US isolation from any language other than English. Online translators do make it easier, but it is still a chore sometimes. :) I also want to learn, but I keep bouncing from French to Italian to German to Dutch - that doesn't help. :)
If you have suggestions for resources on German rates to other countries prior to 1875, I would be anxious to find them. I am also always interested in finding online copies of the postal conventions and other postal documents that outline foreign mail procedure.
My thanks to you and to Ralph for the help. I am willing to repay as I am able.

Best,
Rob

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Monday, January 28th 2019, 6:36am

Hello Rob

when you scroll down the FrontPage of the Forum, you´ll find "Projekt Postverträge". When you click on the left side then on "Erweiterte Suche" (advanced search) youll find this page:

https://www.dasv-postgeschichte.de/pv/pv_show.asp?ext=1

Now you can fill in the date and countries and you can see, wheather there are contracts online, or not. You´ll find many thousands, in German, English, French etc.

Hope you have some days off ... :D
Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph

Niemals bin ich weniger müßig, als in meinen Mußestunden. Und niemals weniger einsam, als wenn ich allein bin. Publius Cornelius Scipio "Africanus"

17

Sunday, February 3rd 2019, 6:00pm

Hello Rob.
The German currencies are diificult for Germans too. You always find pitfalls , when you look in descriptions. You will get better with it with more practice.
Thank you for your offer to help. I might ask you about some details in my transatlantic- collection.
Best regards , Martin

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Sunday, February 3rd 2019, 8:22pm

Hello Rob.
The German currencies are diificult for Germans too. You always find pitfalls , when you look in descriptions. You will get better with it with more practice.
Thank you for your offer to help. I might ask you about some details in my transatlantic- collection.
Best regards , Martin
:thumbup: