Hello Rob
nice one! As this letter to Wurttemberg was dispatched via Bade, Bade got 6 Kreuzer from Switzerland and Switzerland kept 10 Rappen for their 1st Rayon.
If the Swiss hat sent it via lake Constance to Friedrichshafen (Wurttemberg), what was regular, Wurttemberg had got 6 Kreuzer from the Swiss postoffice.
Hello Rob
nice one! As this letter to Wurttemberg was dispatched via Bade, Bade got 6 Kreuzer from Switzerland and Switzerland kept 10 Rappen for their 1st Rayon.
If the Swiss hat sent it via lake Constance to Friedrichshafen (Wurttemberg), what was regular, Wurttemberg had got 6 Kreuzer from the Swiss postoffice.
Hello Ralph,
I am not sure I understand. The markings on this seem to show Constance to Friedrichshafen. So, it did enter Baden at Constance.
Am I to understand the Schweiz uber Baden marking was intended for overland carriage from Constanz and it would normally be omitted if it went by lake steamer to Friedrichshafen?
If that is the case, then they changed their mind and sent it by steamer even after putting the Baden marking on this item. 
thank you for being willing to comment and discuss these items with me. It is helpful.
Rob
Hello Rob
when a letter from Switzerland (or via Switzerland) shows the handstamp "SCHWEIZ über BADEN", the first German state was Bade to get this letter, where ever it came from (Switzerland, Italy, north Africa, India etc).
With this handstamp Bade showed its own post officials and, if to be sent to other countries, those post officials, that Bade had to get the full stake for the DÖPV (German postunion) of 3 Kr., 6 Kr. or 9 Kr., depending on the mileage from the bordertaxpoint for Bade to the destination in Germany or other countries (such as Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmakr etc).
If the same letter had been sent via the lake Constance, it would have been Wurttemberg to become the first German state and therefore Wurttemberg would have got 3 Kr., 6 Kr. or 9 Kr. from the Swiss post. You can see this only when there is a handstamp of Friedrichshafen, or, when they had no time for this, there´s only a handstamp of the travelling post office from Friedrichshafen to Ulm.
If the same letter had been sent via the lake Constance to Lindau (Bavaria), it would have been Bavaria to become the first German state and therefore Bavaria would have got 3 Kr., 6 Kr. or 9 Kr. from the Swiss post.
So it is very important in this period (1852-1868 ), which German country got their letters from Switzerland. The country of destination had no influence of anything then, so it didn´t matter wheather a letter was directed to Taxis, Prussia, Saxony or whatever country.
Am I to understand the Schweiz uber Baden marking was intended for overland carriage from Constanz and it would normally be omitted if it went by lake steamer to Friedrichshafen?
Yes - we either see Schweiz über Baden OR Friedrichshafen. Swiss letters via Wurttemberg or Bavaria to Bade never show the handstamp Schweiz über Baden.
A little bit difficult to understand, I know. Sometimes I wonder, how few Germans and Swiss collectors understand those rules and practicis. If you know it, you´ll be far ahead of 95% of all collectors and it will not always be as easy as sudoku ... 
Yes - we either see Schweiz über Baden OR Friedrichshafen. Swiss letters via Wurttemberg or Bavaria to Bade never show the handstamp Schweiz über Baden.
Ok, I understand this. So, that must mean that the Baden marking was applied and then a choice was made by Baden post to take a lake steamer anyway since Friedrichshafen does have a backstamp on this cover.
Very interesting.
R
... you are right. Would like to see more of your Swiss covers to Germany or beyond.
... you are right. Would like to see more of your Swiss covers to Germany or beyond.
Ralph,
Well, I hate to disappoint you at this time. But, you've seen them. One to Wurttemburg and one to Austria. Otherwise, I have Swiss items to France and Italy. that's about it. I wasn't kidding when I said I was new to learning this material. Hopefully, I am proving to be an apt student.
The first motivation for my learning was to get a better understanding for items like what I show below. I know it doesn't belong in this topic area. But, the more I understand mail interchange in Europe, the easier it is for me to understand US to Europe (and through Europe) mail.
I will share as I discover.
Best,
Rob
Hello Rob
you learn fast.
Double rate letter (wrong 16, correct 32 handstamp). 8 Silbergroschen: Thurn und Taxis (6 Sgr.) plus Switzerland (2 Sgr.), so 3rd rayon German states and 1st rayon Switzerland.
Completely transferred by rail to the Swiss border.
You and others can surely write more about this beautiful and interesting letter. Thanks for showing us this beauty. 
Double rate letter (wrong 16, correct 32 handstamp). 8 Silbergroschen: Thurn und Taxis (6 Sgr.) plus Switzerland (2 Sgr.), so 3rd rayon German states and 1st rayon Switzerland.
Completely transferred by rail to the Swiss border.
Ralph,
Yes, you are correct with your assessment. And, it is an item I like very much in my exhibit.
With most US postal history descriptions you find in the United States, the European portion of the equation is often not covered in much detail. Typically, descriptions stick with a general route that focuses much more on the trans-Atlantic portion to the first foreign exchange office. If it is convenient the description will mention various tax stamps like the 8 silbergroschen, etc without accurate account telling what it is for. Of course, details are given if they are convenient or truly outstanding in some way.
I think I understand why this is. Part of the reason is that it is often a difficult puzzle. Another reason is that we Americans are very poor at deciphering any language other than English. There are many resources that exist that we fail to access because we can't read French, or German, or Spanish or... I am forcing myself to read postal conventions, works by Salles and others. It is hard work for a person who has very little "foreign" language training. This is why I am very grateful that you and others on this board are willing to help me in English.
I desire more accurate and complete descriptions when I can decipher them. Richard Winter has done much with this area, but I believe he gained much of his understanding by studying European mail systems as well. He is a scholar I believe is a worthy one to follow, if I can.
I have some better weather coming the next few days. So, I will likely not be online as much as I have been the last couple of days.
Best to all!
Rob
Hello all!
Here is an item I see on an online site that is for sale. It appears to actually meet the criteria for 50 centime rate from Switzerland to German States.
Origin is Geneve, so that should make it 2nd rayon for Switzerland. Destination is Frankfort, which should make it third rayon - hence 50 centime/rappen rate.
Am I correct here?
Rob
Hello Rob
you´re right - 20 Rappen for Switzerland and 30 Rappen = 9 Kreuzer for Taxis.
As Thurn und Taxis were not a country like Bade, Bavaria, Wurttemberg and Austria, they had to be very clever. In the early decades of the 19th century TT (Thurn und Taxis) had contracts with Schaffhausen, a Swiss canton.
They managed to get the right for closed mailbags from Switzerland to Frankfurt am Main, so Bade/Wurttemberg/Bavaria did not get the 9 Kreuzer for the German postal Union, but TT got them, as they declared Frankfurt am Main for the first German postoffice to open the mailbags.
Mail to TT (including Hamburg, Breme, Lubeck and the North European Countries) had to be sent in closed mailbags to Frankfurt am Main and was then distributed from there. Therefore you´ll always find a handstamp from Frankfurt am Main, the "postal capital" of TT as entry Point of Germany.
This letter would be about 30-40 $, just to give you an Impression of the prices here.
Guten Abend allerseits,
diesen Brief konnte ich jüngst in der Bucht kaufen und ich glaube für schlappe 3€ war er kein Fehlkauf.
Aufgegeben wurde der Portobrief am 25.10.1860 in Chur und man adressierte in an Herrn Ernst Weber nach Gera, Sachsen, wo er dann drei Tage später den Ankunftsstempel erhielt.
Allerdings muss ich hier was die Taxierungen angeht leider resignieren und bin auf eure Mithilfe angewiesen 
Liebe Grüße
Kevin
Hallo Kevin,
den darfst du mir fürs Doppelte weiter verkaufen, ich nehme ihn gerne.
Leitung von Chur über Bayern (Lindau - Augsburg - Hof) nach TT. Die CH notierte 6 Kreuzer vorne für den 2. Rayon und Bayern machte einen Strich und 9 Kreuzer für sich = 15 Kreuzer beim Empfänger.
Da Gera aber in Groschen rechnete, strich man diese und notierte korrekt postalisch reduziert 5 Groschen, die sicherheitshalber auch siegelseitig notiert wurden.
Also bekam die CH 6 Kreuzer von Bayern und Bayern 15 Kreuzer von Taxis, musste aber 6 Kreuzer an die CH wieder abführen. Kein Bestellgeld sagt uns, dass der Empfänger ein Postfach hatte (daher wurden auch hinten die 5 Groschen wiederholt).
Hallo Ralph,
vielen Dank für die ausführliche Beschreibung und die verständliche Erklärung!
Dann kann ich ihn so in die Sammlung ablegen 
Liebe Grüße
Kevin
Hallo Ralph,
verstehe ich das richtig: Man rechnete 3 Kr. = 1 Gr.? Bei preußischen Silbergroschen waren es ja 3½ Kr = 1 Sgr.
Ich hatte den / und die 9 als 19 angesehen. Daher kam ich neben der Umrechnung in Groschen überhaupt nicht klar. Immerhin wußte ich durch dein Erklärungen, daß das Abgangsland in Kreuzern taxierte. Wieder etwas gelernt.
Danke sagt
Dieter
Hallo Dieter,
da die CH nur mit Kreuzerländern verrechnete, notierte sie auch ihren Portoanteil immer in Kreuzern.
Im Postverein wurden die inländischen Gebühren immer 3x = 1 Groschen angesetzt. Paritätisch war 1 Groschen aber etwas über 3,5x wert.
I like Kevin's cover too! Thanks to Ralph for explanation. Helps me to see more things as well.
Rob
Ralph asked that I show everything I have from Switzerland to GAPU. I now show you HALF of what I have on one page. I think I have the information correct on these pages and am willing to share them now.
I show one other item to Austria in the appropriate thread and my remaining item is shown in a separate post above but I've yet to make a page for it. Might be November by the time I get to it. 
Best,
Rob
Hello Rob
hoping to help you before November:
1st letter
Credit to Bade would be correct, as the Swiss letter packet was opened by the post of Bade first. Wurttemberg got nothing for this letter.
2nd letter
Credit to Wurttemberg would be correct, as the Swiss letter packet was sent an opened of Wurttemberg first. Bavaria got nothing.
Alles anzeigenHello Rob
hoping to help you before November:
1st letter
Credit to Bade would be correct, as the Swiss letter packet was opened by the post of Bade first. Wurttemberg got nothing for this letter.
2nd letter
Credit to Wurttemberg would be correct, as the Swiss letter packet was sent an opened of Wurttemberg first. Bavaria got nothing.
Oh ho! Danke. So, first DOPV member to open the mailbag gets the credit? Unless we're talking about Thurn & Taxis post I presume.
Rob
Yes - first German post gets it all (for Germany).
Thurn und Taxis had own contracts with Switzerland. Those included a closed transit through Bade to Frankfurt am Main. So in Frankfurt am Main the Swiss packet was opened first on German territory and therefore Thurn und Taxis got the Swiss credit. From Frankfurt am Main letters could stay in the postal territory of TT or could be sent north to Hamburg, Bremen, Lubeck or Denmark/Sweden/Norway.
That was a clever little trick and TT got always 9 Kreuzer / 30 Rappen from Switzerland and gave back only 1/2 Kreuzer to 2 Kreuzer to Bade (difficult to explain the differences for equal weighting letters for me in English, even 99,9% of all collectors of Bade or Switzerland don´t know this regulation).
So a very good question from you (would have liked to hear such questions from domestic collectors). 
