Schweiz - Österreich

Hallo Ralph,

...meinst du den weiterern Weg über Bodenbach?

LG
Christian

... so ist es! Wer hätte gedacht, dass ein Heidelberg - Stempel ein Beweis für die Leitung über Bodenbach darstellen könnte?

Bisher ist der einzige, den ich kenne.

Guten Morgen,

beim nachfolgenden Brief bräuchte ich etwas Hilfe bezüglich der Beschreibung...  

Aufgegeben wurde der Brief am 11.10.1865 in Rüti, einer Gemeinde im Kanton Zürich.
Der Brief nahm dann die Route Zürich (11.10), Ulm (11.10) und dann Wien (13.10.).
Ich erkenne noch den Bahnpoststempel "Württemberg Fahrendes Postamt" vom 11.10. , den ich allerdings nicht richtig zuordnen kann und bei den zwei Stempeln von Wien wüsste ich gerne, um was für Stempeltypen es sich dabei handelt.  

Kommen wir nun zur Taxierung des Briefes:

Da der Brief aus dem Jahre 1865 ist, greift hier der Tarif vom 01.11.1852 bis zum 31.08.1868.
Meine Frage ist nun, hätte ein solcher Brief bis 15 g nicht mit 50 Rappen frankiert werden müssen, oder werfe ich da etwas durcheinander?
Ich habe nämlich einen ähnlichen Brief im Internet gefunden, von Schlüpfheim nach Wien von 1867 (ebenfalls über Ulm), der mit 50 Rappen frankiert war.
Die rot geschriebene "9" steht für das Weiterfranko von 9 Kreuzern an den DÖPV.

Liebe Grüße

Kevin

Hallo Kevin,

netter Brief! Jetzt zu deinen Fragen:

Er ist mit 40 Rappen (12 Kreuzern) korrekt frankiert. Ab 1.9.1859 lag Rüti im 1. Rayon zu ganz Deutschland/Österreich, von daher 10 Rappen für die Schweiz.

Über 20 Meilen nach Österreich ergaben 9 Kreuzer, die Württemberg bekam, weil die Bahnpost Konstanz - Ulm als Aufgabepost im Postverein fungierte. In Ulm wurde das Briefepaket dekartiert und um die Ulmer Briefe nach Österreich/Wien vermehrt wieder neu verpackt ("encartirt"). Er lief über Augsburg - München nach Wien.

Den großen Rundstempel von Wien kenne ich nicht - den anderen schon.

Zeig doch mal den 50 Rappen - Brief von Rüti nach Österreich; vlt. liegt der aus 1857 vor und nicht aus 1867?

Hallo Ralph,

den Brief, den ich im Internet gefunden habe, ist aus Schlüpfheim, nicht aus Rüti  .
Somit habe ich auch glaube ich meinen Fehler gefunden, Schüpfheim liegt dann wahrscheinlich im 2. Rayon zu Deutschland/Österreich, ich dachte, dass beide Orte im 1.Rayon lagen.
Vielen Dank für die Richtigstellung und die genauere Beschreibung bzgl. des Weiterfrankos.

Kennt den vielleicht jemand anderes den großen Rundstempel von Wien und kann genaueres dazu sagen?

Liebe Grüße

Kevin

... ja, Schlüpfheim war nicht bei den begünstigten Orten im 1. Rayon nominiert, von daher waren für einen Brief von dort nach Österreich 50 Rappen zu frankieren.

Hallo,

Einschreiben aus der Strubel-Zeit (1854 - 1863) ins Ausland sind nun wahrlich keine Massenware. Noch dazu mit einer 3-Farben-Frankatur. Brief-Porto 50 Rp plus 20 Rp Charge-Gebühr, Abgangsstempel Bern 17.4.1860.
Es gab aber einen noch einen anderen Grund, warum ich ihn gekauft habe. Auf der Rückseite ist ein Stempel von Heidelberg! Da der Brief von Heidelberg bis Wien nur 2 Tage brauchte, vermute ich, das er über Bodenbach befördert wurde. Danke schön an Ralph, das du ihn mir überlassen hast.
Gruß Bruno

Lieber Bruno,

3-Farben-Frankatur, Chargé, Verzögerungsstempel, Laufweg mit 600 km Umweg (oder mehr) ... ja, häufig ist ganz, ganz anders.

Gerne habe ich dir den überlassen - jetzt brauchst du nur noch einen Gegenbrief, gerne auch ohne Chargé oder Verzögerungsstempel, aber sicher über Bodenbach, dann hast du eine Traumseite beinander.

Hallo zusammen,.

ein wirklich sehr attraktiver Beleg, wobei sich mir noch die Frage nach der roten 9 auf der Rückseite stellt. Das sieht ja schon sehr nach postalischer Anbringung aus..

Viele Grüße

vom Pälzer

Related to Keven's item above that shows a 1st rayon in Switzerland to Austria. Here is what should be a 2nd rayon item from Basel to Austria.

I see the 9 crossed out with a 10. Is that a correction to reflect the 2nd rayon?

Also, checking my understanding of dates.

The 50cnt/15 g started Nov 1, 1852? And was the 1st rayon discount added on Sep 1, 1859?

Best,
Rob

Hello Rob

all backsides of all letters from and to Switzerland between November 1st 1852 an August 31st 1868 are important to describe them, otherwise it can only be guessing.

From September 1st 1859 the rayons could change from 2nd to 1st, when a Swiss town or village was situated in the 1st rayon for Bade, Bavaria, Taxis, Wurttemberg or Austria.

So what was 2nd rayon to Austria before this date, but 1st rayon for Bade or Wurttemberg was then 1st rayon for Austrian letters too.

Eine Ausstellungssammlung Bayern - Schweiz

This is one of my special collections (or at least a part of it) and when you look at 1852ff you can read and understand more about this very intersting postal contracts.

I took the link you share. Oh my!

There is a lot to look at there. This will take me a while.

Thank you for sharing that. The item above is on its way to me. Once received I can provide the back of the item. The scan I received is poor and I had to ask for some clarification before I purchased.

Best,
Rob

... take your time.

Any letter from 1860 (or later) to Austria with 50 Rappen is overpaid - therefore it is an intersting letter (before this period it was paid correctly). So lets wait until you have it.

Here is the reverse of the item in question.

Basel Dec 12, 1866
St Gallen Dec 13
Haag Dec 13
about 29 meilen in Swiss
--------
Feldkirch (Austria) Dec 14?
Innsbruck Dec 15
Vulpmes Dec 15
about 23 meilen in Austria

Here is what I think I understand from your exhibit.

Starting in Oct 1852, Bavaria had 3 rayons based on distance. up to 10 meilen, 10-20 meilen and over 20 meilen. Charged 3 kreuzer per rayon to prepay postage.
Switzerland had 2 rayons, up to 10 meilen and over 10 meilen. Again charged 3 kreuzer per rayon
3 kreuzer is equivalent to 10 rappen/centime in Swiss postage.

All rates from Bavaria were per loth. Not sure of correspondence for Swiss. Was it a direct 17.5 g?

Bavaria (and in my case, Austria) would write the amount belonging to Bavaria (or Austria) based off of the number of rayons crossed in Bavaria for letters arriving from Switzerland. So, 3, 6 or 9 kreuzer are possible by this logic.

In 1859, changes were made to determine distance that allowed selection of the closest entry point to Bavaria to the destination. If I understand the logic, that means there shouldn't be a 3rd rayon in Bavaria - which is why you say there is no 50 rappen/centime rate. Am I correct?

However, I don't think the same can apply to Austria as the closest point probably was where this one entered at Haag/Feldkirch. It still exceeds 20 meilen.

Am I missing something else?
Rob

Hello Rob

Starting in Oct 1852, Bavaria had 3 rayons based on distance. up to 10 meilen, 10-20 meilen and over 20 meilen. Charged 3 kreuzer per rayon to prepay or not prepaid postage. Correct

Switzerland had 2 rayons, up to 10 meilen and over 10 meilen. Again charged 3 kreuzer per rayon. 3 kreuzer is equivalent to 10 rappen/centime in Swiss postage. Correct

All rates from Bavaria were per loth. Not sure of correspondence for Swiss. Was it a direct 17.5 g? - No, 15g which were 1 Loth exclusively.

Bavaria (and in my case, Austria) would write the amount belonging to Bavaria (or Austria) based off of the number of rayons crossed in Bavaria for letters arriving from Switzerland. So, 3, 6 or 9 kreuzer are possible by this logic. Correct

In 1859, changes were made to determine distance that allowed selection of the closest entry point to Bavaria to the destination. If I understand the logic, that means there shouldn't be a 3rd rayon in Bavaria - which is why you say there is no 50 rappen/centime rate. Am I correct? No, there were still 2 Swiss and 3 Bavarian/Austrian rayons, but most Swiss towns were then in the first rayon.

However, I don't think the same can apply to Austria as the closest point probably was where this one entered at Haag/Feldkirch. It still exceeds 20 meilen.[/quote] When a town in Switzerland was as close as 10 Meilen = 75 km = 45 miles to the middle of the bordertaxpoints to any of the German countries or Austria, it was 10 Rappen/3 Kreuzer for Switzerland only; it didn´t matter, how many miles it was to the Austrian border. As Basel was very close to Bade, all letters from Basel were from the 1st rayon to any country, so a letter from Basel could only cost a maximum of 40 rappen/12 Kreuzer to Austria.

Ah! So, an item originating in Geneve might qualify, but very few
locations in Switzerland would qualify as being in the 2nd rayon as of
that point.
And, because of the postal union, bordertaxpoints were shared between Austria and Bavaria, etc.

I think I am understanding well enough now.

But, I still wonder why 9 kreuzer is crossed out and replaced with 10 kreuzer?

Many thanks! I have enjoyed viewing your specialized collection.
Rob

Hello Rob,

I think that the 10 meant 10 Rappen for Switzerland and therefore 9 Kreuzer "Weiterfranko" for Austria.

There were international problems with many letters, who showed big numbers, that could have been taxnumbers as well, on the front side, as post clerks often didn´t know, wheather it was a "Weiterfranko" (prepaid for the Country of the addressee), or a certain amout of Kreuzer, which they should collect from the addressee.

Zitat von bayern klassisch

Hello Rob,

I think that the 10 meant 10 Rappen for Switzerland and therefore 9 Kreuzer "Weiterfranko" for Austria.

There were international problems with many letters, who showed big numbers, that could have been taxnumbers as well, on the front side, as post clerks often didn´t know, wheather it was a "Weiterfranko" (prepaid for the Country of the addressee), or a certain amout of Kreuzer, which they should collect from the addressee.

This is part of what makes these puzzles so very interesting. Increasing mail volumes, changing mail systems, movement in country borders and improving transportation. It is not a surprise that post workers might be inconsistent at times and make mistakes.

The hard part for us is determining what is in error and what correctly reflects the process of the postal system at the time.

Looking at the other items you show in your exhibit, I feel like the "9" would correctly show the credit for the amount paid to reflect the 3rd rayon in Austria. It seems to be similar in style and intent as some you show. For now, I will just file this as an unsolved mystery for me that may not have an answer that is knowable.

This stuff is better than Soduku.

Rob

I finally managed to complete the page where I show the cover from Basel to Vulpmes. I place it here for all to see and criticize (as they see fit). I think I got the facts correct.

Best,
Rob